tv News4 at 6 NBC December 28, 2012 6:00pm-7:00pm EST
is test drive was over, so we could head back to the dealership. [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. test drive! . we'll be talking about that, but maybe two chances coming up. we'll be back later on with more on our weather. thanks, doug. the other important story tonight, president obama met with the four congressional leaders this afternoon just a few minutes away. steve handlesman has more. >> after the meeting, he called the president was optimistic and insistent, optimistic there can be a deal that will keep most americans' taxes from going up. here's the president gist now in
the white house briefing room. >> i just had a good and constructive discussion here at the white house with start and house leadership about how to prevent this tax hike on the middle class. i'm optimistic we may still be able to reach an agreement that can pass both houses in time. senators reid and mcconnell are working on such an agreement as we speak. but if an agreement isn't reached in time between senator reid and senator mcconnell, then i will urge senator reid to bring to the floor a basic package for an up-or-down vote. one that protects the middle class from an income class hike. one that extends it to 2 million americans looking for a job and lays the groundwork for more economic growth and debt
reduction. >> that leads to the insistent park, asking reith who control the senate agenda and has a majority to pass things gets you most of the way through the senate. clearly the president wants mcconnell and the republicans not to filibuster and to be a senate vote, which leads to the most insistent part, the president basically pointing the finger at house speaker john boehner who controls the house and could refuse a vote even if this obama-friendly package passes the senate. he's saying to house republicans, you better let us get not what you want, but something where we can reassure 97% or so of americans -- they haven't set the actual cutoff, a quarter million a year, $400,000 a year, $500,000 a year, something in that area, people above that, to get a tax rate hike on income above that.
the president is insisting on a vote before the fiscal cliff. we'll have to see if john boehner goes along with that one and if the obama plan can pass the senate, but there's a bit of optimism, a bit of energy, the body language finally looks a bit more positive. back to you. >> steve, with that improvement body language and the prospects that maybe something will happened, doesn't the fact remain that representative boehner does not seem to have control of the republicans in the house, a group of them standing firm, no taxes -- on a no tax increase on anybody. >> that's right, which is why boehner pulled the plug, jim, you'll recall, on that vote, which was supposed to be a show vote to put the pressure on the president to draw the line at a million. when he realized he didn't have a majority of the republicans,
he didn't go forward. what this is now is an old school where you have a bipartisan society, where boehner would be asked to permit a vote, even if he knew most republicans would vote no. it's humiliating for a speaker, especially in this milieu, in the world we live in now. it would set up boehner to maybe lose the speakership when the vote is taken in the house for that on january 3rd. it would certainly mean a fight. you would have paul ryan, cantor saying, wait a minute, this guy forced a vote we didn't want to take, but that's what the president is trying to get boehner to do. give me a few republicans, says boim bhoim, i'll deliver democrats, i'll deliver senate and sign the bill and save 97% of americans from a tax hike. boehner might not be able to do it or might refuse to do it. that's the next step in this process. >> fascinating and perhaps
unfortunate scenario. steve handelsman, thank you. a group of democrats along with regular citizens took a shot at republicans today with their own symbolic ball drop outside the u.s. capitol, the group trying to send republicans a message to not on their words drop the ball on the middle class when it comes to offer tax breaks. breaking news this evening in the murder of a capitol hill man shot in his car early monday morning. d.c. police have just released this video of two persons of interest. it is surveillance video from a nearby school. it's not known whether it was taken before or after jason emma was killed. a wild ride landed three people in custody. police say this stolen car crashed into a metro bush near wheeler room. the suspects a littledly went on
a purse-snatching spree before the accident. at 6:30, we'll tell you what one of the victims said to the alleged robbers right before they made their getaway. about an hour ago all the lanes reop after a six-vehicle pileup. traffic was snarled for more than six hours. it happened at the intersection of rockville pike at temple avenue in rockville. i believe that's near congressional plaza. you a driver hit several vehicles. a judge granted bond today for a man -- with high-powered rifle. christopher johnson was arrested, in sthaus burg, virginia. this guy claimed he was trying
to send a message about school security. the judge ordered him to stay away from schools and get mental health treatment. his bond is set at $2,000. good news tonight about former president george h.w. bush. a family spokesperson says his condition is improving. he's potential taken to singing for his doctors and nurses. he's still battling that fever at a hospital in houston he was moved to icu on sunday. doctors are still optimistic about his recovery. yet another epic battle in this town this weekend. stakes could not be higher. it is winner take all for the nfc east title.
>> it's been a successful season. almost as successful as the redskins themselves. now that there are talk of playoffs, but before we get to that, there is one win in the way. >> the shirt says it all. redskins fans are ready to clinch the division title, but why stop there? >> i'm getting ready to think about my drive to new orleans. >> first the redskins and cowboys face off in a classic nfl rivalry. each team has their loyal fans sporting their colors, but not everyone is eager to throw on the burgundy and gold. go redskins. >> cowboys! 28-21, cowboys! >> the clarks are split down the middle. the one i was in labor with,
this is how she -- he has to go with his dear old dad. he's a little shy. >> he has to go back and forth, because he's r.c. 3. >> they can relate. gabriella has redskins earrings, but her mom carries a cowboys purse. >> my husband and i said when we had her, we were going to let her make her own decision. >> go redskins. >> reporter: you can catch the big matchup signature night at 8:00 right here on the nbc4. richard jordan, news4. so do you want to go to that game, buddy? you want a ticket? it's going to cost you. an actual seat will cost you about $300. that's from stubhub. there are some standing room only options they're in the neighborhood of $200.
of course, you can watch it on tv, including our redskins pregame show heramee show on sunday night and of course the game right here on nbc. straight ahead at 6:00 tonight, a surfer comes way too close to a shark. how he managed to fight it off. outrage tonight after the president of russia signed a controversial law about adoption. and the huge alimony payments italy's former plea mere is going to have to pay hi second wife. and at
dpoo funeral arrangements have not yet been final iced for former army general norman schwarzkopf. the general known as stormin' norman drove iraqi forces out of kuwait during the gulf war. reaction has been pouring in since word of his death. former secretary of state colin powell called him a great patriot and great soldier president obama says we have lost an american original. he died of complications from pneumonia at the age of 78. > . tonight a political dispute could mean heartbreak for some
americans. russian president putin signed a las vegas that banned americans from adopting russian children. it's a retaliatory move that has a lot of folks crying foul. >> reporter: president putin signed the bill less than 24 hours after receiving it from the russian parliament. the ban on americans adopt will come into force on january 1st. it's estimated there are more than 700,000 children in
russia not living with their parents. what's shocking is they're putting the well-being of children at risk for the sake of retribution. >> nbc news, london. the state department is also urging russia to allow at least those children who have already met and bonded with american families to complete their adoption process. you're going to think i have made a mistake. silvio berlusconi will pay his former wife $4 million a month in spousal support. they settled their divorce on christmas day. what he is paying is more than 132,000 a day. berlusconi does get to keep the couple's estate according to an
italian newspaper. neither party is being blamed for the divorce. berlusconi is 76-year-old now, currently we are told he is date ago woman about 50 years his junior. a 20-year-old surfer is recovering from a shark attack. it happened this morning off the coast of australia. he's expected to be okay, but he lost two fingers in the ordeal. winnen witnesses say he used his surfboard to fight off the fish. >> he was swimming arnhem, and he took about three chunks out of him. >> paramedics say quick thinking probably helped save his life. road crews getting ready for a storm tonight. northern virginia bureau
reporter david culver joins us from vdot's headquarters in leesburg. >> reporter: officials say their crews will have to prepare for what's going to be a really long night. they've taken a break from that for now. they'll reconvene at midnight at several locations across northern virginia. dean tripplett picked up a few essentials, salt and an ice scraper. >> you never can tell what will come by. >> >> reporter: inside the store manager says they're fully stocked now, but what happened when they open up tomorrow morning at 7:00?
>> the guys that are plowing, they'll really stock up. >> this would be the third snow event this week. wednesday roads proved treacherous. >> some of the back roads, like 15, those tend to be backed up, because people are trying to get to places. >> i'll probably spend a day packing, getting ready, watch the weather. i'll get updated on my travel plans. >> this ash burn harris teeter is not packed, but travelers are worried about the forecast and what it could mean for the weekend plans. >> we do have a day planned with my brother down in washington d. doctor. i hope it's not a problem. we're from oklahoma, we don't get a whole lot of snow. ice but not a lot of snow. others are preparing for a long weekend at home. >> what do we have here?
>> enough to last me a couple days. >> the good news for doreen is she'll at least have electricity while she's in her home. i was speaking to dominion power crews, they tell me they'll have crews on call and standby, but don't expect any major outages. this is a storm that will make its way up here. first it's happening on a saturday. secondly it won't be one that produces a lot of -- we're not talking about a lot of wind. for some of us it will be all rain. who gets what? that's my job to tell you who i think will get the most. the full moon was last night, so the monday is 99% full tonight.
temperatures got up to 45 degrees. it was a pretty nice friday. low this morning, and yes, we do have a winter weather advisory, right now we're sitting at 38 degrees, windchill down to 33. it's a cool night. on friday night like this in the late december, not bad at all. so we are cold enough that if we -- the storm moved in now, most of us would be seen this fall as snow, and i think it will start as snow for just about everybody overnight tonight. the radar, not showing anything in our area, this is where the moisture is coming from. it is mostly rain. again we're going to continue to see heavy rain, but to the north that's where the snow is, around st. louis, portions of illinois, indiana, same areas that saw snow just the other day. if you saw snow the other day and it was all snow for you,
you'll see the same from this event. if you saw snow change to rain the other day, that's about what i expect from this storm. if you saw all rain, that's about what i expect here, too. not much of a change from the last storm we saw. as far as the chili conditions go tonight, those will give way to the rain and snow overnight tonight. once again that rain/snow line will be very close to our area. it will all be out of here by 5:00 tomorrow night. that mean we won't see too many problems associated with this. by sunday, the storm moves out, here comes the cold and windy conditions again. sunday will be very similar to yesterday. so we're following a trend. snow on wednesday, cold air on thursday, snow on saturday, then sunday coming in with cold and windy conditions. so a cold day on sunday for sure. this is what i expect.
snowfall forecast, this will be mostly rain down toward the south. even if you start as snow, you may way up to a coat, but this will quickly change to rain. this should most likely start as snow, you'll way up to snow in the morning and we'll see it mix or change to rain, depending on where you are in this line, so maybe an inch or less for the most part, some areas maybe more, but generally around an inch in this area, when you get back to 1 to 2 inches and stay all snow. southern frederick county, so again watch out for that area 1 to 2, maybe 2 to 3 inches on the aench. we'll see some areas higher. but this is about what i expect
from the storm, and of course i'll give you the latest update before this starts. this will change just a bit, but i don't expect it to change much. this is why we have the winter weather advisories, but to the north and west. again, loudoun county, gaithersburg, that's why we'll see that winter weather advisory in those locations as we move on through the morning tomorrow. tomorrow morning waking up to snow for most of us. it should be all no, but quickly changing over to rain. temperatures 29 to 34. roads could be an issue early in the morning. it looks like another chance of rain or snow. before question start the new year. on a cold note. >> good winter weather on sunday. >> not bad.
coming up next, an early morning crime spree, a stolen car and a driver narrowly misses a baby stroller before it crashes. one city's controversial plan to protect children in schools. stay tuned. coming up in sports, we're talking what else, redskins and cowboys, a lot on of line this weekend as fedex field as the nfc east crown is on the line. plus as the cowboys are trying to stop rg
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the woman who became the second female bishop in the episcopal church, a woman who served is the washington diocese, has died. she became a priest in her late 40s. she was bishop pro ttemper. she died at her home on christmas morning. she was 75. one man killed, three police officers injured and recovering now after a shooting inside a new jersey police station this morning. police say the man who did the shooting had been arrested on charges of do mist ink violence, got into a struggle inside the
gower police station. somehow he grabbed the gun and started shooting. he shot three officers. one was rushed into surgery. the other suffered minor injuries, we're told. police eventually shot and killed the man. joe arpaio is the sheriff in arizona, infamous for her stands on immigration and other things. he's sending out posses to protect schools and students in the phoenix away. arpaio says he'll deploy three to four hundred volunteers outside about 50 schools. he plan is similar to others announced this week by the state attorney general and the sheriff of another county in arizona. arpaio first used volunteer posses back in 1993 to guard malls during the holiday season. the spokesperson for the antigun group calls his latest move outrageous. a small but vocal group of protesters gathered xwrout side
the nation's gun show, as it's called at dulles expo center this afternoon. they held up signs and shouted into a megaphone. in the meantime the crowd interested going into the show was lined up all around the building. gun show attendants and gun sales have gone way up since the deadly shootings in newtown connecticut a couple weeks ago. gun rights activists are worried that tighter restrictions could be passed in the new year. there was a solemn vigil today outside a gun shot, which called for a crackdown on gun sales. demonstrators rang bells and pray prayed it's one of the most profitable gun dealers in the nation. they called for the end to assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. >> we come at this hour to condemn the use of guns in every
act of violence throughout this nation and indeed this world. >> the owner of realco guns did not respond for requests for comments. a few miles away, people at target practice told us they feel for the newtown victims, but they believe in responsible gun ownership. u.s. customs officials have had a busy week keeps drugs from coming into the country. last friday agency's 214 pounds of a leafy stimulant, part of a shipment supposed to be made up of wood coffee tables. on christmas eve agents found more than 11 pounds of heroin sewn into the lining of a suitcase carried by a 60-year-old woman. she was coming from ghana, and agents noticed that her suitcase seemed quite heavy. right now at 6:30, president obama says there needs to be
immediate agents to avoid the fiscal cliff. the president held a news conference just before 6:00 this evening. he says he's optimistic an agreement can still be reached. this afternoon mr. obama said the meeting was good and constructive. >> the one thing the american people should not have to wait and see is some sort of action. if we don't see an agreement between the two leaders in the senate, i expect a bill to go on the floor and i've asked senator reid to do this, put a bill on the floor that makes sure taxes on middle-class families don't go up, unemployment insurance is still available, and that lays the groundwork then for additional deficit reduction and economic growth steps that we can take in the new year, but let's not miss this deadline. that's the bare minimum we should be able to get done. senate leaders say they hope to reach a compromise that could be presented to lawmakers by
sunday, a little more than 24 hours before the deadline. and don't miss "meet the press" on sunday morning. david gregory will interview president obama exclusively just hours before the fiscal cliff deadline. "meet the press" airs at 10:30 on monday morning. police locked up tonight after a brazen crime spree. as jack write benson reports, one of the victims had choice words for those who were arrested. >> reporter: the occupants of this stolen car are -- i'm okay now. i just thank god he didn't hurt me. >> reporter: when sharon gardner first saw this nissan maxima, it was speeding away from the bp gas station with the man who had just stolen her purse in the backseat. >> i was in between vacuuming my car out. i was going from my driver's side to my passengers side.
by the time i got to the trunk of my truck, he had immediately hurried up and took my pockbook. i had it on the floor. i had it covered up. >> reporter: someone had jotted down the tag number. gardner called the cops while the responding officer was still at the robbery scene, his police radio crackled with news. the speeding nissan had crashed head-on into a metro bus on southern avenue at wheeler road. gardner drove to the scene and met up about hess husband, a d.c. officer. she had she was calm enough to say manage to the man implying that justice could catch up with him. he just didn't think it would be this soon. i say it's okay. that's okay. that is okay. that is why i told him what i told him. i was giving him a message. >> reporter: as police began their investigation, reports started coming in from prince george's county and also several parts of the district where this
vehicle and the people in it had been seen stealing purses and other things from people rae cars. jaxxie benson, news4. the search is on tonight for a person who killed a 30-year-old man in loudoun cows. jovan johnson was found dead last night. this afternoon sheriff's democrattys passed out flyers in an neighborhood in. they don't believe the shooting was random. drivers are being reminded to stay alert this weekend after two deadly crashes this week. a total of six people have died. three more last night at the mixing bowl. adam tuss has more on the victims and new calls for saved. >> reporter: when you think of the phrase "white knuckle driving" the capitol beltway may come to mind. so crowded, unpredictable, hard
to navigate, some stay away completely when they can. >> they are alternate rules. >> reporter: just this past week, six fatalities on the road, three christmas eve night, one of those killed, 30-year-old jasmine fajamison of silver spring. the crash happened when one car slid out of the control. her neighbors are remembering her. >> that night the weather conditions were terrible. it was snowing, but it's just sad. >> reporter: then just last night, three people from out of town killed when their truck slammed into the back of a stopped tractor trailer. one of things that makes driving here along the beltway so tough, there are splint of out of town drivers on the road and the weather can turn rough quickly. local police see their fair share of accidents on the road. the message to drivers right now --
>> it's important to remember these crashes and the types of things that happen, put a face on them, and to try to do all we can to keep our roadways safe. >> reporter: local drivers know all too well the dangers of the beltwayivities the -- it's really confusing. >> it can be treasure russ at times. people cut you off. you have to pay attention. >> reporter: in tysons corner, adam tuss, news4. robert is a sheriff's deputy. a couple days ago a neighbor was doing, and he says he was attacked and beaten. the victim went to the hospital suffering what we're told, degroup was charged, and put on administrative leave. coming up on "news4 at 6," flu cases rising sharply across the country and here at home. skins, getting ready to shut
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the cdc reports that flew cases are rising sharply. you can see here in red those states mostly concentrated in the southeast, where flu is rampant. the states include virginia, maryland is reporting moderate at this time. no numbers for the district, which didn't provide the cdc with enough data. researchers say one reason possibly that we gain weight during the holiday season is because we're changing something they call the food clock. it's a mechanism that keeps our metabolism working at a certain pace. when you change the type of food you eat and begin eating different fools at different times of the day, the food clock is thrown off schedule, which is what causes you to gain weight. one day experts are hoping to use this information to prevent weight gain. you don't need to know the president if you want to dan dance at his ball. the presidential inaugural
committee has announced plans to to make a limited number of tickets available to the public. people who would like to request tickets can sign up on the website, that is 2013pic.org. those who sign up can question to two tickets on a first come/first served basis. those tickets will cost you $60, which is not bad to maybe get to hang out with the pres and first lady. we're -- you came just at the right time. >> right when the redskins got hot. coming up in sports, two quarterbacks will play key roles in sunday's game. how they plan to stop tony romo. and what are robert griffin iii's college more when "news4 t
6" continues. hello. welcome back. it's a pretty nice night tonight. on the cold side, but not bad. 38 degrees, the clouds starting to move back in. winds out of the north at 6 miles an hour. it's a chili night, but once again not too bad for a friday evening. 34 in leesburg, down to 30 in gaithersburg. the temperatures are already setting the stage for snow
overnight into early tomorrow morning. i do think just about everybody will start out as snow tomorrow. as temperatures have cooled and will continue to cool. nothing on the radar right now in the area, but just down to the south and west, starting to see that portion in through portion of virginia. but back down around birmingham. what are we expecting in here's future weather showing you what to expect. not a lot going on, and then we'll start to see the precipitation move in. once again expecting even down tards southern maryland, you may start off with snow, but quickly changing over to rain. even tomorrow morning, i think we'll see a mixture of snow with some accumulation. that rain/snow line sets up almost as it always does. so from baltimore south you're looking at rain to the north and west of washington, looking at
some snow. so let's break it down for you. i expect you to mostly see rain here. again, you may wake up to some snow. buoys, rockville, washington, mt. vernon, manassas, i expect this to be about an inch or less, some areas a bit more. 1 to 2 along i-81 corridor. winter weather advisories for all of you back towards the north and west. thanks, doug. jason pugh is new with us. we want to welcome you. you're new in town, but i know because you're a sports buff, it's been a long time since we've been this jacked up with a game against the cowboys. >> you have a reason to. this is going to be a fun game. i net more nervous than excited about these big games. eye looking forward to it. i really am.
today was the final day of practice. before their matchup with the cowboys, it all came down to the final week of the season. both the redskins and cowboys can clinch the division crown with a victory. the skins have a chance of making the playoffs with a loss, though. with the cowboys, it's win or go home. both these teams are coming in hot after starting the year at 2-3. the cowboys have been on a roll and won five of their last seven, putting them in line for a division crown. everyone knows about the redskins hot streak, coming down to the last game, both teams want to keep on winning. >> i think it would be an amazing step forward in this season. at no point can you look forward or past one game.
i think it's made every win more exciting. and this team, this organization has done a fantastic job focusing one week at a time. >> i think as a competitor, you love playing in these games, in these situations. i wish you could play, you know, every week. in a lot of ways every game feels important and to this level. so, you know, as important as this game is, as this point it's the most important game in the season, but so was the game four weeks ago, three weeks ago. we're going to put our head down and keep running. tony romo has only made the playoffs three times in his ten-year nfl career. for as much criticism as he gets for what he hasn't done, romo has actually had a great season. this year he's surpaced troy aikman's franchise mark, romo has led the cowboys to a 3-1
record. during that four-game stretch, he's the main reason dallas even has a shot at making the postseason. the defense is missing several starters. the redskins understand in order to beat dallas, they must contain their best player. >> it's hard to contain the guy. he's a heck of a football player. i've always felt that way about him. he's got a great feel for getting out of the pocket, moving around president he's got a great arm. he's got tremendous weapons around him, and he utilizes it well. his favorite guy, obviously is witten. he knows when he needs something, he goes there. and, you know, that's -- they've got a lot of weapons. it's going to be -- i think it's going to be a great opportunity for us to see where we're at. >> he keeps plays alive. you can have a blitz, you know
and he'll be able to fade away from the blitz and still get a ball off. he's a great quarterback at throwing the ball on the run. cowboys and redskins game will be right here on nbc4. we have you covered before the game, during the game and after the contest, starting with the pregame show, "redskins showdown" and "redskins final" after the ball game. robert griffin iii is the best player to come out of baylor. yesterday his alma mater took the field against ucla and his replacement broke some records. the holiday bowl between the bruins and bears, pick it up in the second quarter, baylor already on top 14-0. here florence drops back to pass. he goes up top. that's reece getting by the secondary. florence has thrown for more yards than anyone in school history in a single season, passing rg3.
later on baylor gets it done on the ground. glasgow martin gets loose. it's 28-7 bears. they lead it, they go on for the easy victory over ucla, 49-26. how about the skins and cowboys this weekend? the entire town is looking forward to it. >> that's right. wish we could p have a good night. here you go. you, too. i'm going to dream about that steak. i'm going to dream about that tiramisu. what a night, huh? but, um, can the test drive be over now? head back to the dealership? [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back. and it's never been easier to get a passat. that's the power of german engineering. get $0 down, $0 due at signing, $0 deposit, and $0 first month's payment on any new volkswagen. visit vwdealer.com today.
latest on snow chances for tomorrow. glad the game's not being played tomorrow. >> yeah. you know, though some people would love to see a snow bowl. that would be good tough. i love football. i'm in. let's though you what's happening the nebs couple days. here's your future weather. once again out tonight no problems. the snow will move in overnight around 3:00, 4:00, i think most of us will wake up to snow, at least the coating on the ground especially back toward the west. south and east you're talking about rain, most of this will be back to the northwest, though, it should stay all the snow. i expect some of you to pick up maybe 2, 3, even 4 inches back
to the west. we could see this change to all rain. even if you get an inch of snow, it will quickly be gone as the rain moves in. tomorrow night looking quite cold. take a look at sunday. of course, 39 degrees for a high. gametime on sunday night we're talking about at 8:30 start. i think the temperature will be an with a windchill 124 to 35. tony romo cannot win with windchills under 30 -- i made that up, but it's a good stat. looking really cold as we move towards thursday and friday. >> thanks, doug. >> yeah. back this august of 1955 i realized a terror of the likes i have i had never known before or
after, it happened when i saw emmitt tills' mutilated body in a casket. emmett till was a 14-year-old black boy on a visit to relatives in mississippi. he was brutally killed by white men who were told he had flirted with a white woman. emmett till's mother was a woman named mamie carton. she made a courageous and ultimately important decision. he insisted on an open casket at her only child's funeral. she said she wanted everybody to see what the virulent racism in mississippi at that time looked like. that decision was transformational. the word transformational is used by joe madison, notice mine. he's exemplary talk show host. as he often does, he has a thought that warrants consideration and sharing -- what would happen if any one of the parents of those 26 babies
in newtown, krk countering would authorize or even encourage the release of the crime scene photos of what happened to their child? here's the point. we are once again engaged in a debate over guns. the arguments pro and conare old and tired. frankly most of us have long made up our minds about the second amendment. but what would happened if we changed the discussion? and instead of arguing over who, if anyone, should or should not own a bushmaster, let's see what a .223 cartridge from an assault rifle does to a person. let's soo what 11 of them -- 11 of them do to a 6-year-old child. like joe, i am not insisting on taking anybody's gun away, but i too think there might be some value to taking the discussion about this out of our heads and into our guts, away from the heat of the elk hall, the